Two key advisers to Donald Trump have presented him with a plan to end Russia's war in Ukraine - if he wins the Nov. 5 presidential election - that involves telling Ukraine it will only get more U.S. weapons if it enters peace talks.
The United States would at the same time warn Moscow that any refusal to negotiate would result in increased U.S. support for Ukraine, retired Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg, one of Trump's national security advisers, said in an interview.
Under the plan drawn up by Kellogg and Fred Fleitz, who both served as chiefs of staff in Trump's National Security Council during his 2017-2021 presidency, there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said.
They have presented their strategy to Trump, and the Republican presidential candidate responded favorably, Fleitz added. "I'm not claiming he agreed with it or agreed with every word of it, but we were pleased to get the feedback we did," he said.
Trump spokesperson Steven Cheung said only statements made by Trump or authorized members of his campaign should be deemed official.
The strategy outlined by Kellogg and Fleitz is the most detailed plan yet by associates of Trump, who has said he could quickly settle the war in Ukraine if he beats President Joe Biden in the Nov. 5 election, though he has not said how he would do that.
The proposal would mark a big shift in the U.S. position on the war and would face opposition from European allies and within Trump's own Republican Party.
The Kremlin said any peace plan proposed by a possible future Trump administration would have to reflect the reality on the ground but that Russian President Vladimir Putin remained open to talks.
"The value of any plan lies in the nuances and in taking into account the real state of affairs on the ground," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters.
"President Putin has repeatedly said that Russia has been and remains open to negotiations, taking into account the real state of affairs on the ground," he said.
Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said on Tuesday that freezing hostilities at the prevailing front lines would be "strange," given Russia had violated international law by invading Ukraine.
"Ukraine has an absolutely clear understanding and it is spelled out in the peace formula proposed by President (Volodymyr) Zelenskyy, it is clearly stated there - peace can only be fair and peace can only be based on international law," he told Reuters.
The White House National Security Council said the Biden administration would not force Ukraine into negotiations with Russia.
"President Biden believes that any decisions about negotiations are up to Ukraine," said NSC spokesperson Adrienne Watson.
NATO MEMBERSHIP ON HOLD
The core elements of the plan were outlined in a publicly available research paper published by the "America First Policy Institute," a Trump-friendly think tank where Kellogg and Fleitz hold leadership positions.
Kellogg said it would be crucial to get Russia and Ukraine to the negotiating table quickly if Trump wins the election.
"We tell the Ukrainians, 'You've got to come to the table, and if you don't come to the table, support from the United States will dry up,'" he said. "And you tell Putin, 'He's got to come to the table and if you don't come to the table, then we'll give Ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field.'"
According to their research paper, Moscow would also be coaxed to the table with the promise of NATO membership for Ukraine being put off for an extended period.
Russia invaded neighboring Ukraine in February 2022. Until some gains by Russia in recent months, the front lines barely moved since the end of that year, despite tens of thousands of dead on both sides in relentless trench warfare, the bloodiest fighting in Europe since World War Two.
Fleitz said Ukraine need not formally cede territory to Russia under their plan. Still, he said, Ukraine was unlikely to regain effective control of all its territory in the near term.
"Our concern is that this has become a war of attrition that's going to kill a whole generation of young men," he said.
A lasting peace in Ukraine would require additional security guarantees for Ukraine, Kellogg and Fleitz said. Fleitz added that "arming Ukraine to the teeth" was likely to be a key element of that.
"President Trump has repeatedly stated that a top priority in his second term will be to quickly negotiate an end to the Russia-Ukraine war," Trump spokesperson Cheung said.
Biden campaign spokesperson James Singer said Trump is not interested in standing up to Putin or defending democracy.
Some Republicans will be reticent to pay for more resources to Ukraine under the plan. The U.S. has spent more than $70 billion on military aid for Ukraine since Moscow's invasion.
"What (Trump's supporters) want to do is reduce aid, if not turn off the spigot," said Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.
Putin said this month that the war could end if Ukraine agreed to drop its ambitions to join NATO and hand over four eastern and southern provinces claimed by Russia.
During a meeting of the United Nations Security Council last week, French and British ambassadors reiterated their view that peace can only be sought when Russia withdraws from Ukrainian territory, a position Kyiv shares.
Several analysts also expressed concern that the plan by Kellogg and Fleitz could give Moscow the upper hand in talks.
"What Kellogg is describing is a process slanted toward Ukraine giving up all of the territory that Russia now occupies," said Daniel Fried, a former assistant secretary of state who worked on Russia policy.
During a podcast interview last week, Trump ruled out committing U.S. troops to Ukraine and appeared skeptical of making Ukraine a NATO member. He has indicated he would quickly move to cut aid to Kyiv if elected.
Biden has consistently pushed for more Ukraine aid, and his administration supports its eventual ascension to NATO. Earlier this month, Biden and Zelenskyy signed a 10-year bilateral security agreement.
© Thomson Reuters 2024.
130 Comments
TaiwanIsNotChina
Yeah he's talked a big game but is he willing to show the ultimate weakness from the White House press podium?
zibala
Two key advisers to Donald Trump have presented him with a plan to end Russia's war in Ukraine - if he wins the Nov. 5 presidential election - that involves telling Ukraine it will only get more U.S. weapons if it enters peace talks.
Excellent plan that will save lives.
Cards fan
Yes, an excellent plan that gives Putin exactly what he wants. Reeee
TaiwanIsNotChina
Literally will not as it will mean Ukraine will have to fight longer including an insurgency if necessary.
Sanjinosebleed
Go Trump about time someone stopped giving weapons makers a free lunch!
GuruMick
The war has reached a stalemate , similar to the trench warfare in France in WW1.
Any proposal to get the "two sides " {actually more, if you include US and NATO nations } talking is a good start.
PTownsend
Are these the same advisers that are preparing a Post-Constitution nation which gives the president sweeping nearly unlimited powers so the US president can be like kings and dictators. Bye bye republic it didn't live that long, but if the convicted convict gets back in power the elite establishment, people like Tim Mellon can get what their robber baron ancestors (See Andrew Mellon the corrupt former secretary of the treasury and infamous robber baron) always wanted complete control, no longer having to acknowledge there are others in the US that might want to be protected from their insatiable greed,. The elite establishment have a corrupt Supreme Court in place thanks to control given to them by the Republican Party, aided by the Federalist Society and Leo Leonard.
Cards fan
Yes, go Twump! I want fascism. Reee
Banthu
Ukrainian boys and fathers are hiding in their houses to avoid the roaming gangs of conscription police who drive around and grab men off the street and throw them into vans to send them to the front lines.
War, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.
It's time for a peace deal.
JJE
There is no insurgency in Donbass. They all support Moscow and hate Kyiv.
Moscow will not allow Ukraine to join NATO or a conflict to 'freeze' that will start back up again; this has to be settled once and for all.
Those 4 oblasts and 2 others have to be handed over in their entirety.
dagon
If Trump team is already putting out those terms it would make strategic sense for Putin to start a bloody blitzkrieg between confirmation of a Trump victory and Inauguration Day.
Not very non-interventionist.
Yrral
It time to end support of this loss cause, Ukrainian do not want part of it,they are been force to serve in a war,they do not support
ClippetyClop
No doubt on Kremlin letterhead paper. Agent Trump doing Putin's bidding yet again. Good little puppy!
2020hindsights
Trump is the modern day, Neville Chamberlain.
JJE
Not even close. But Moscow has drafted them into the Russian army and used them as cannon fodder.
It's not Moscow's decision to make.
For Putin's imperialist aims? I don't think so.
John
It’s surrender to Russian expansionism without saying “surrender.”
And Trump would screw it up because even surrendering takes time and he’d get bored. Also, he’s an idiot. AND a fascism lover.
2020hindsights
Yrral
True. But Putin doesn't care if they support it or not, he is sending his troops to their deaths.
bass4funk
Makes sense to me.
Like what we are seeing now?
Then the left and swamp should have never tried to go after a populist President and trying to undermine and bury him, they should have just allowed the public to make that determination as they always have since the creation of the Republic. You reap what you sow.
Doubt it, but if it happens it happens, the left can’t say anything they wanted this, we kept telling them not to go this route. We warned Harry Reid not to blow up the Senate filibuster, he didn’t listen and because of his hatred and desire to undermine Republicans, in the end it helped them to get 3 conservative justices on the bench. Now the left are doing it again. They can’t complain.
No, they have Constitutionalists in every sense of the word and rule based on how it’s written and interpreted, not like liberal activist justices that make up things as they go along and can’t even give a definition of what a woman is.
No, Harry Reid.
Yes, the left have Nate Silver and Ron Klain, plus Soros, and your point?
Yrral
I.meant Ukrainian
UChosePoorly
So you are saying that Trump’s plan is a non-starter?
stormcrow
That sounds like something only a gutless leader would do.
UChosePoorly
Bass - you got these Russians on this forum already saying that they aren’t going to go for a ceasefire. What would you or Trump say to convince them otherwise?
JJE
Wouldn't read too much into this. The premise of the article is based on a 'research paper' by one of these endless institutes by these two guys.
Uncertain how much sway they have and potential sway they may have in the future.
Trump's spokesman, mentioned in the article, has played this down. So, it's far from official.
However, examining the details of it - there are several elements which Moscow will not tolerate (after all they will have the stronger bargaining position to dictate terms).
NATO membership for Ukraine is a big no-no.
Permanent neutrality is a total necessity.
Territory/border changes have to be recognized for the conflict not to start again.
Demilitarization to support the above will be necessary.
2020hindsights
Yrral
I know. Of course, Ukrainians don't support this war, but it's no use talking about it, because Putin doesn't look likely to stop it any time soon.
Russians don't support this war either.
itsonlyrocknroll
The only route to first ceasefire, and then a negotiated peace proposal is a full withdrawal of Russian military in Ukraine.
I am sceptical even then the Russian Government would ever honour any treaty for peace.
Donald Trump must before the November US elections state his intentions clearly for continued military support for Ukraine, its people.
Appeasing Putin could have huge ramifications consequences for global peace.
bass4funk
I think given the size, scope, scale, odds, the threat of NATO at its borders, Ukraine should have tried to negotiate talks with Russia, not cowardly, you can’t win this.
2020hindsights
bass4funk
They didn't. Nobody has gone after Trump.
But that's immaterial, he won't win in November.
UChosePoorly
JJE - are you saying that Putin is going to out-negotiate Trump?!?
Bass - you see what these Russians are saying?
JJE
Read the article closely - this is not "Trump's plan". It's a plan by two guys at a 'research institute' who were in his previous administration but whose possible future roles and influence are anything but certain.
Trump's spokesman hosed down any endorsement of the plan. When Trump says it, it's official. That's what he effectively said.
Not unreasonable to say this is far from official.
UChosePoorly
JJE - got it. So these guys could pass this plan to Biden too then.
UChosePoorly
Anyway JJE - who do you think is a better negotiator, Trump or Putin?
2020hindsights
JJE
Russia is in a stronger bargaining position now but won't be in a year.
That's a complete non-starter for Ukraine and only a fool would agree to it.
Again, a complete non-starter for Ukraine. If Ukraine give away that territory, Putin will regroup and attempt to grab more in 3 years.
Not going to happen.
JJE
With regards to hypothetical negotiations, Moscow will be in a much stronger position than Kyiv (and it's getting stronger by the day), which will reflect a hypothetical settlement.
This means the dynamics of the battlefield and realities it reflects would be the overriding factors in any possible settlement.
This means a few things right off the bat:
Moscow will never withdraw from Donbass or Crimea. NEVER.
Nor will they accept Kyiv in NATO. NEVER.
These two things are off the table.
The only things to negotiate are where the new border is set and the conditions of Kyiv's future and permanent neutral status.
Redemption
So this gives a huge incentive to escalate fighting and make territorial gains before Trump becomes president.
zibala
Under the plan drawn up by Kellogg and Fred Fleitz, who both served as chiefs of staff in Trump's National Security Council during his 2017-2021 presidency, there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said.
Better than anything the Biden administration has come with.
Agreed this will be the case with Trump back in office.
Blacklabel
That’s exactly how you stop a proxy war.
Don’t fund it and tell the people you paying to fight to stop.
bass4funk
Sorry, I don’t deal with liberal across the pond theories
Yeah, if he’s shot.
lincolnman
It may have been handed to him by his advisers, but it was no doubt written in Moscow...
With a lot of input by the guy he considers a "genius"...
Just like with Afghanistan, it's a surrender document...
It's what Trump does - you know, makes T-shirts that say "Never Surrender" with a mug shot of him surrendering...
Cards fan
It isn't a proxy war. This is exactly how you encourage Russia and China to keep invading their neighbors, this exactly how you get a world war.
They're not being paid to fight, this too is utter nonsense.
bass4funk
You think?
He kind of is.
Unlike The disastrous withdrawal of this this administration that will be Joe’s legacy.
So be it, as long as he’s America first, and implements that as his main agenda, so be it.
I agree.
Blacklabel
as Ukraine is supposedly “winning”and hasnt lost any ground, this isn’t a problem. Right?
ceasefire: good
death and destruction stops: good
not a bad plan that was presented to Trump (not “his” plan calm down, left)
John
For Russia
Until the Russians rearm.
Give in to a fascist dictator: VERY good for the cult.
JJE
This appears to be the 'research paper':
https://americafirstpolicy.com/issues/america-first-russia-ukraine
(Has a PDF file DL link)
Cards fan
Except it's a stupid plan that only benefits Putin. Everyone wants an end to the death and violence, but it's a matter of on what terms.
lincolnman
I do...
Proof - MAGA-world loves Putin...
Huh?
Proof - MAGA-world loves being hustled and played for a sucker...
Kuku
What do you want? Ukraine is losing meter by meter. There are no reports of a single lost settlement regained by Ukrainians. On the contrary, Russia is moving forward, albeit slowly. The occupied territories will never return to Ukraine. And the longer you bargain, the less territory will remain for Ukraine.
UChosePoorly
Kuku - Wake me up when you guys talk Vovchansk.
UChosePoorly
take*
Kuku
"Vovchansk" is not your business. First learn to write the name of the Russian town Volchansk. Got it?
VOLCHANSK!
JJE
Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.
While not perfect, it is clearly leaps and bounds ahead and above Biden's non-existent 'plan', which is more of the same, anchored in "as-long-as-it-takes" foolishness and Swiss fantasies.
So, it is at the least commendable that they have at least attempted an outline that a future negotiation may look like.
And that is fundamentally why the Biden administration is weak.
UChosePoorly
Kuku - I am referring to the Ukrainian town of Vovchansk.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vovchansk
kurisupisu
Peace over war gets downvoted?
Moronic…
lincolnman
The Russian invaders and butchers to leave Ukraine...
Tell that to all the Russian sailors that lie with their ships at the bottom of the Black Sea...
Moving slowly forward? On Day #850 of a war that was supposed to be over in seven days? That's called "losing"....
Translation: Putin knows he can't win - and is begging for some type of face-saving truce. He's eviscerating his own military for being "corrupt" which means they were planning another coup. And even he knows the constant begging to Iran and North Korea for weapons won't last forever....
Blacklabel
weapons to do what with?
Cards fan
To fight. We're paying for their weapons to fight. We're not paying them to fight. Those aren't the same thing.
They're fighting for their homeland, because they're patriots, something MAGA folks know nothing.
John
I remember when bending over for fascists wasn’t NOT part of Republican orthodoxy.
2020hindsights
JJE
And yet Putin is desperate. His economist is forecasting how a protracted war will ruin Russia.
I would guess they will eventually.
Sure. But it's not their choice. Ukraine can do as they wish.
Nope.
Back to 1991 borders, and a member of NATO seems the most reasonable outcome.
2020hindsights
John
But there was an America First contingent in the GOP that support Hitler and his aims during WW2.
FizzBit
LOL
In other news by By Gram Slattery and Simon Lewis
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!
Ramsey's Kitchen
Several analysts also expressed concern that the plan by Kellogg and Fleitz could give Moscow the upper hand in talks.
Realistically Ukraine is never going to have the upper hand in talks with Moscow, unless US/NATO decides to directly intervene on the ground which would mean all gloves off and a potential devastating nuclear conflict.
Yes, an excellent plan that gives Putin exactly what he wants. Reeee
Yes, ceasefire and peace are an excellent plan. The US military industrial complex pro -war camp would be deeply unhappy about that, no doubt.
Literally will not as it will mean Ukraine will have to fight longer including an insurgency if necessary.
Fighting in Ukraine will grind to a halt once weapon flow thins and ceasefire is negotiated based on this proposed plan. Most intelligent people understand this, military industrial complex camp pretends they don't.
Cards fan
That's right, when you can't defend the plan change topics.
The money people aren't invested in Truth Social. Money launderers and morons are.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/quote/DJT/holders/
itsonlyrocknroll
Kuku, President Putin, "special military operation" has cost lives of over 50,000 plus Russian soldiers.
Russia's meat grinder soldiers - 50,000 confirmed dead
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-68819853
A ceasefire will only be achieved when all Russian troops and military withdraw from Ukraine, and European UN peacekeepers maintain that ceasefire.
Maybe, a proposal can be found that brings a lasting peace, at the same time offers forth a dignified face saving strategy for President Putin in defeat.
A token methodology for a treaty, with guarantees Ukraine will have no future NATO membership.
Cards fan
Waiting on you to say something true.
Lol It has nothing to do with wanting to "deny Trump a win," and everything to do with justice. I want what the Ukrainian people want. You don't.
Yes, how dare we give them the weapons they want and need to defend themselves.
There's nothing at all arrogant about ignoring their wishes and FORCING them to bend the new to the fascists who illegally invaded their homeland and stole it from them. No
Kuku
If you keep reading Wikipedia, you'll oversleep everything. What one can talk about with a person who doesn't read anything?
Ramsey's Kitchen
The war has reached a stalemate , similar to the trench warfare in France in WW1. Any proposal to get the "two sides " {actually more, if you include US and NATO nations } talking is a good start.
Absolutely, and kudos to Trump team for coming up with such a plan proposal.
That sounds like something only a gutless leader would do.
That sounds like something a leader who wants to see ceasefire and peace take hold, instead of tens / hundreds of thousands more dead, would do.
Of course you have verifiable proof for this accusation. Let's see it.
And Trump would screw it up because even surrendering takes time and he’d get bored. Also, he’s an idiot. AND a fascism lover.
Well , Trump became and will quite likely again become POTUS, so fair bet he is less of an idiot than some random, upset JT Trump haters.
Seth Majer
Did you read the article or even the title of the article? This is a plan presented to Trump. Nowhere does it say that it is his plan and that he is implementing it.
Blacklabel
Another reason it’s a proxy war:
Ukrainians must die because the left doesn’t want Putin to “win” in any way, shape or form. You even want to take back all his previous wins back to 1991.
so others must die by proxy for YOU.
not even for YOU as you not even involved, except paying.
just die for YOUR NARRATIVE to survive. How sad
Moderator
Readers, please stop bickering.
Bob Fosse
That the stock is fluctuating up and down at an unpredictable rate? That the company is broke?
That’s what you base a plan on is it? I see.
Ramsey's Kitchen
But that's immaterial, he won't win in November.
In that case the Biden camp posters supporting continuation of the Ukraine war and more casualties have no reason to worry and get upset about this plan.
lincolnman
There's a reason Putin went to Vietnam and nK on his recent trip and bypassed China...
Putin went to Xi over two years ago before he invaded Ukraine and said;
"I'd like your support for my upcoming invasion of Ukraine - its a win-win for both of us. It will be finished in seven days - we'll be standing in Kiev within a week so it will be over quickly. And it will fragment and disrupt NATO and the West - and show them to be weak"....
Xi is a viscous dictator but he ain't no dummy...
He's seen that the promised week-long war is now on Day #850. He's seen that NATO and the West are now much more stronger militarily and politically, with an additional 1.5 million modern new troops from Finland and Sweden. More critically, he has seen that Putin's invasion resulted in a military mutiny by the Russian military and Prigozhin - something Xi fears from his own military everyday....
Basically he's seen that the exact opposite has occurred from what Putin promised...
Putin's standing and "word" within China and the CCP is about as good as the Dalai Lama...
2020hindsights
Blacklabel
It's not a proxy war.
Nope. As soon as Ukraine stops asking for arms, the world will stop sending them. This is totally up to Ukraine.
owzer
So somebody hands Trump a (potentially) bad plan and people jump all over Trump like he did something bad. Did I miss the part where Trump said, "Wow! This is a great plan! I'm definitely going to do this when I get re-elected!"??
JJE
Anyone who thinks 1991 borders are going to happen has been drinking too much lemonade. Ditto for Moscow allowing what is left over of Ukraine to join NATO.
Ramsey's Kitchen
So these guys could pass this plan to Biden too then.
It is a good plan, Biden could benefit from adopting it (or something similar ) and demonstrating he is pro peace instead of pro war. But its doubtful. If he would I would cheer for him. So far his policies have only supported conflict escalation and huge casualties. Be it in Ukraine or Gaza.
Sure looks like one.
Ceasefire is good for the people of both Ukraine and Russia. Bad for the western military complex and its supporters.
Azzprin
.
Kyiv did talk with russia about peace.
Kyiv told russia where to go with their unreasonable demands.
Kyiv told russia, that it wants russians to leave Ukraine and end the war.
Russia said they would stay.
.
So Kyiv and russia have talked about peace.
Kyiv wants the russians to leave
Russians wants to stay and take Ukraine land for themselves.
.
Blacklabel
People wanting Ukraine to keep fighting an unnecessary proxy war and keep dying just for their narratives sure are getting sensitive and emotional when called out for such.
Cards fan
It isn't a proxy war, duh. A prox war isn't when a country supplies it's ally with weapons to fight off a foreign invasion. That isn't a proxy war. Stop pretending to care about the Ukrainian people while you advocate for the opposite of what they want.
bass4funk
Ok
Proof he loves America even more
This administration, which seems to be coming to it’s final decrescendo.
Bob Fosse
Diplomatic and Military history experts don’t think this is a proxy war. The “I’m tired of all these experts, I can fly this plane” crowd should read more.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-02-21-expert-comment-no-proxy-war-russia-really-invaded-ukraine#:~:text=This%20is%20no%20proxy%20war%2C%20with%20NATO%20and%20the%20Soviets,This%20is%20a%20real%20war.
lincolnman
Do you think the Moskva, Rostov-on-Don, and Minsk are still floating around the Black Sea?
No, I'd say it came from the guy that gave the invasion order...after his US Ambassador said on national TV three days before that "there are no plans for an invasion"...
2020hindsights
Ramsey's Kitchen
Do you think that Russia is winning?
No. It’s from Putin. He thought the war would be over in a week.
If the US instigated the war, you can call it a proxy war. They didn’t and so it isn’t.
John
Repeating this lie over and over doesn’t make it true.
And the vast majority of non-cult of America supports funding Ukraine as does Europe. As do the vast majority of Ukrainians.
It’s only Putin-pounders that want to give in to a Perry thug.
Antiquesaving
We can go on and on about Trump is this, Trump is that!
No I don't like him, I don't like Biden either, my personal opinion on both, and I think both parties need to look for better candidates.
But Trump is what is going to be on the ballot so no point in wishing someone else was !
The thing about Trump is he is greedy, money and power (and staying out of jail) are his driving factors.
War makes money only for the military complex, everything else suffers and Trump isn't part of the inner circle of the military complex money makers.
He sees war simply as a hindrance to business especially hotels, real estate, travel, etc..
So of course he wants an end to it and a return to business as usual.
If you ask most CEOs of most major corporation in private with no chance of their reply being public, the vast majority would be ready to dump Ukraine, split Ukraine, whatever it takes to get back to pre war business, get their hands on Russian supplied resources, get access to certain markets in both Russia and whatever is left of Ukraine!
What the business leaders say in public and what they really think are very different and war is bad for most businesses other than military,
Trump thinks this way, he isn't a politician, he is a greedy businessman first and foremost and money and power right now and after being president is all important to him, war isn't good for him or his business.
John
Anyone who thinks the Russians are just going to keep the spoils of their war crimes should go back to drinking lemonade.
lincolnman
Good...
Who is "he"?
Your words - you enjoy it when Trump takes your money and laughs at you...
UChosePoorly
AS - Are Russian arms manufacturers not making any money on this war? How do we know this whole war isn’t a big conspiracy to funnel Russian tax rubles to the Russian weapons manufacturers? Has this angle been explored?
2020hindsights
Antiquesaving
Unlikely. I don't think you can put much on the polls, but they are turning toward Biden.
Antiquesaving
You would be correct about Ukrainians but not so with the rest!
The "VAST" part of your statement depends on the definition of VAST if you mean 50%+1 then perhaps.
But the reality is in the USA if you join together doing enough and not enough you are at around 55% support for military aid to Ukraine
This is actually down considerably especially in the not doing enough down by nearly 10%.
Meaning people are getting tired.
In the EU apart from a few Nordic countries the Importance of supplying Ukraine is in the 30%s or lower.
The media and governments will say it is high because they will include the 3rd choice in the poll "important but not a priority" this is the copout way to get a somewhat "support the war" when if only 2 choices were given the support would have been very low!
"Not a priority" was by far the most common answer to the EU population view and support of the war.
Again just because people point out facts and reality doesn't mean they are Putin supporters or whatever name you like to call someone you disagree with!
Facts are facts and pointing these facts out shouldn't get people called names or given labels because the facts are not to your liking!
bass4funk
Yes, you can because even in the US, the most liberal of news outlets show Biden losing to Trump, take your pick, not sure what they show you across the pond, but even the Biden admin is in a panic, they lost already 20% of the black vote, now in the US and for the Democratic Party, that amount spells doom and gloom, Hispanics are the second to bail.
itsonlyrocknroll
But Trump is what is going to be on the ballot so no point in wishing someone else was
Antiquesaving, I would not bet on either Biden or Trump, set in stone, being on that ballot paper November
Politically these are "strange" times.
Trump has more legal hurdles' than a 400 meters runner to jump over.
One thing for sure the US people could well not be willing vote for a candidate having to campaign from a prison cell, worst case, even if Joe Biden is proven to be mentally close to popping his cork
Antiquesaving
Are you saying the republicans have another candidate?
Try reading the in bold again!
On the ballot
I didn't say he was going to win I said he will be on the ballot!
Unless you know something the MSM doesn't!
Antiquesaving
Another not on topic rant again!
Did I say anything about Russian arms industry not making money!
Take these conspiracies etc... elsewhere, maybe moon landing or flat earth?
Jim
Of course Trump will help his comrade Putin in every possible way even if it means destroying not only America but even the entire world! “ Trump is a puppet of Putin “ as the Great War hero late Senator John McCain said back in 2017 after Trump bashed The United States by siding with Putin during a press conference! Americans needed more Republican senators and congress members such as late Senator John McCain who always put country before everything else and had the power to stand up to Trump who is a fake Republican ( Trump was a Democrat for many many years ). Trump lacks any form of morality, honor, respect, honesty, patriotism or integrity… he is just a liar and a loser who has formed a cult !
Cards fan
Yeah, that was exactly his point.
You're critical of western arms manufacturers, yet couldn't care less about Russian arms manufacturers rake it in through this imperialist invasion.
UChosePoorly
How are non-Ukrainians tired? Tired of what? Watching Russian assets and invaders getting smoked every day? Watching our stock market go up and our unemployment going down?
Nobody who isn’t Ukrainian has no right to be “tired” of Russia’s invasion.
UChosePoorly
Thanks, Cards Fan
AS - you brought up the military complex, so I as just hoping that you would be as critical of Russian arms manufacturers, but you never seem to mention them.
Antiquesaving
Could you show any proof of what you say?
I have looked and as far as I can find not one MSM not one expert legal or otherwise has said either Trump or Biden are in any danger of being replaced.
Sadly!
I agree on both, but again sadly under the USA two party system and neither party looking like they are ready or able to remove either or both these guys, the public will really only have these two choices!
Wishful thinking won't change that!
fallaffel
Putin will negotiate only once the Russian people finally reach a breaking point over his pointless war.
Antiquesaving
Is the article about Putin? Russia? Or is it about Trump?
Lets see! Oh right Trump!
I pointed out what I see as Trump's motivations and nothing to do with the Russian military complex but Trump!
Try looking at the topic!
Cards fan
The article is also about Putin. His name is mentioned in the article multiple times.
Try reading the article!
lol Sure. I'm sure Trump's motivation is hotels and not his adoration of Putin.
Mat
How about its Russia entering peace talks with Ukraine? Why is the victim of an illegal invasion being asked to discuss terms with its attacker?
Ramsey's Kitchen
Do you think the Moskva, Rostov-on-Don, and Minsk are still floating around the Black Sea?
Lol, just yesterday team Biden posters were whining about question being answered with a question. Pot meet kettle. For the record I think Moskva is on the bottom of the sea and Ukraine is loosing meter by meter. Do you disagree with that?
No, I'd say it came from the guy that gave the invasion order...
You have a reliable source / quote for that? Or it didn't happen?
I think the poster probably meant Ukrainians UCP - numerous videos of Ukrainians trying to cross the border and being hunted on the streets and assaulted by military recruiter team thugs trying to drag them off to the meat grinder indicate they are tired off being hauled to the front.
Antiquesaving
Again you getting upset over facts!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the people in other countries that are being affected by this war and funding it have every right to care about it and about themselves!
And despite your protesting, the facts are that in every poll the longer the war drags on more and more people in those countries are getting tired!
You can wish whatever you like but the facts yes I know facts are things you don't like when they are not your view but they are the facts.
Water is wet that is a fact and support on Supplying Ukraine is dropping and that to is a fact and both are not subject to opinion or feelings!
OssanAmerica
Well there you have it.
TRUMP - PUTIN 2024 !!!
Ramsey's Kitchen
Anyone who thinks the Russians are just going to keep the spoils of their war crimes should go back to drinking lemonade.
How and when do pro NATO experts predict Ukraine will take back Crimea and Donbas ?
Ramsey's Kitchen
Putin went to Xi over two years ago before he invaded Ukraine and said;
"I'd like your support for my upcoming invasion of Ukraine - its a win-win for both of us. It will be finished in seven days - we'll be standing in Kiev within a week so it will be over quickly. And it will fragment and disrupt NATO and the West - and show them to be weak"....
Can you supply verifiable proof for Putin saying this to Xi? The readers would love to see it. Thanks.
Moonraker
Funny how the right portrays itself as the spokespeople of peace in this conflict yet are about as far away as possible from peace as a state of mind. There is always something ulterior when otherwise authoritarians are for "peace".
Ramsey's Kitchen
I think Russia is slowly taking more and more of Ukrainian territory. So once again, can you answer that same question - Do you think Ukraine is not loosing meter by meter?
Can you provide verifiable proof of such a statement then ? Where he said it would be over in a week. Would love to read it. Thanks.
To borrow from the NAFO repertoire of strong rebuttals - Yes, it is.
itsonlyrocknroll
Antiquesaving, not proof, one can only predict outcomes, in effect speculate
Please view......Trump first
The Cases Against Trump: A Guide
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/donald-trump-legal-cases-charges/675531/
This must be taken into consideration, I suggest GOP will be privately assessing all scenarios with a range of options and candidates.
Now Biden.......
Democrats Might Need a Plan B. Here’s What It Looks Like.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/12/joe-biden-democrat-plan-b-nominee-00140790
There is no definitive conclusive Biden Trump ballot.
TaiwanIsNotChina
People that feel aggrieved almost never go quietly into the night. Ukrainians hate Russians with the burning of a thousand suns now. Also even if all the western aid dried up, it won't stop the supply of small arms and Molotov cocktails.
Ramsey's Kitchen
Repeating this lie over and over doesn’t make it true.
Just because NAFO don't like hearing something doesn't make it a lie.
>
Peter Neil
he won't be elected, so what's the point?
TaiwanIsNotChina
Imagine being proud of being a useful you-know-what.
How likely is the US to be drawn into reinvading Afghanistan vs coming to the defense of our treaty allies in Europe? Keep in mind Congress slapped the cuffs on that treaty so it can't be surrendered out of.
Blacklabel
If the USA can stop the war, it’s a proxy war.
can the USA halt this war?
Cards fan
It isn't a proxy war, though. This is nonsense. If this is a proxy war, then literally every conflict ever is a proxy war.
Russia really did invade Ukraine. The US is helping its ally defend itself. That isn't a proxy war.
Cards fan
Not how a proxy war works. The US isn't the only one providing aid to Ukraine. Keep trying.
No.
Ramsey's Kitchen
It's simple, Biden administration staffers and supporters are desperate to link Trump with Putin whenever they can. It helps take away attention from Biden's unfortunate but plain to see cognitive and health decline and questions about his ability to perform as POTUS.
Ramsey's Kitchen
Literally nobody anywhere believes that denial.
TaiwanIsNotChina
No. Should be obvious.
bass4funk
Imagine how most Americans feel.
With a weak woke military, hardly.
Depends
There is always the Supreme Court
bass4funk
Yes
Not this current administration
Ramsey's Kitchen
"Are Russian arms manufacturers not making any money on this war? How do we know this whole war isn’t a big conspiracy to funnel Russian tax rubles to the Russian weapons manufacturers? Has this angle been explored"
UCP - Apparently the Russian plan was to take Ukraine in between 72 hours to 7 days. Prolonged conflict is a disaster for the Russian economy as it brings it to its knees. NATO experts are adamant about that. So that effectively dismisses any notion of conspiracy to funnel Russian tax rubles to Russian manufacturers. The western military industrial complex that wants to prolong and escalate the war on the other hand is a different story. Welcome.
Cards fan
I couldn't care less what the pro-invasion crowd says.
They can make whatever claims they want, but they can't back them up with facts.
wallace
The EU will continue to fund and arm Ukraine.
Ramsey's Kitchen
Talk about desperately trying to deny the obvious bruhs.
2020hindsights
Ramsey's Kitchen
Do you think that Russia is winning?
That's not winning. What are Putin's war goals. It's not more meters of Ukraine.
Do you think that Russia is winning? If they aren't then Ukraine is not losing.
No. It’s from Putin. He thought the war would be over in a week.
There isn't a public statement, to my knowledge, but it's a widely accepted fact that Putin, on the advice of his generals and FSB agents, thought that Ukraine would be captured, and a puppet president put in place within a week.
It's not a proxy war.
Nope, it's not.
2020hindsights
Ramsey's Kitchen
can the USA halt this war?.............No.
Well, maybe you don't believe it. But do you think that Putin would stop the war and withdraw his troops if Biden or Trump asked him to?
So, the answer is, 'no'.
2020hindsights
Ramsey's Kitchen
Trump's love affair with Putin is well known. And we do know that he can't stand up to him, which is why he wants to capitulate on Ukraine.
Let's check that hypothesis during the debates. Biden won't remember his own name according to you. well, let's see.
Ramsey's Kitchen
You do make a good point with that.
Funny you say that as you post the replies. Cool bruh.
Ramsey's Kitchen
Let's check that hypothesis during the debates. Biden won't remember his own name according to you. well, let's see.
Actually its quite possible Biden will perform exceedingly well...Trump has already forecasted the performance enhancing shot in the .....to improve Biden's debate chances. Of course such Trump quips can be easily dispelled by both candidates taking a comprehensive performance enhancing drug test immediately prior and after the debate. Surely team Biden will agree to that if there is nothing to hide. Let's see , as you say.